(To anyone wanting to post a comment: Feel free, but if you want me to take you seriously, do not post an 'anonymous' comment. Grow a pair and own up to your comments. Thanks.)
Anonymous has left a new comment on your post "Attack of the Nature Nazis ... again.":
You have issues, to say the least, and your knowledge of birth is sketchy at best.
Yes, I have issues -- issues with people who have medical knowledge that is rudimentary at best but think that they are the experts. I take issue with anyone who tries to SCARE women into having a certain type of childbirth and/or parenting experience by falsifying information or taking "facts" out of context. I abhor Nature Nazis. Considering my gestational experience, the education I have received and am still receiving, and what I do for a living your comment is a bit humorous. Then again, most Nature Nazis view anyone in a healthcare profession as "sketchy" so I suppose I am in good company.
Deliver your babies how you wish, feed your children as you wish, and put them at risk for a plethora of preventable diseases. But do not dare lie and force others into living how YOU see fit, denying them the right to make choices with their healthcare provider on what is right -- and HEALTHY -- for them and their families.
I checked out the website in question - you talk about it bending facts to an agenda when you're the one who's guilty.
Oh really? How so? I didn't change their wording at all and listed direct links to where the comments could be found.
You took those statements out of context and indeed, the articles are research-referenced, some even by page number (check the medications page). The medications given in an epidural are not approved for use in pregnancy whether you choose to accept it or not. You can verify this with the FDA site as well.
No, I did not. I posted exactly what they posted. And no, they are not research referenced. Let's take a look at the pages in question:
"Choosing a Natural Childbirth" at http://www.givingbirthnaturally.com/natural-childbirth.html ~ This is all personal opinion. There is not one footnote, not one researchable reference, nothing.
"Unsafe Medications in Pregnancy, Labor, Delivery, and Lactation" at http://www.givingbirthnaturally.com/medications-in-pregnancy.html ~ The author lists medications and, yes, gives a page number to the PDR. HOWEVER, those page numbers are the only reference listed. The author does not give enough information on which version/edition of the PDR she is using to make the "reference" usable. I have a pocket PDR here at home and use the most up-to-date edition at work. Let's look at some of the drugs listed:
CYTOTEC: First and foremost, there are many, many medications used for "off label" purposes. Heck, I filled a script for Colace syrup last night ... to help a patient get rid of a bolus of ... ear wax. Off label does =/= unsafe. In the case of cytotec, it IS a common medication used in chemical abortion (as a part of the RU-486 cocktail). It also ripens the cervix and has NSAID properties. For that reason, it's contraindicated for use by pregnant women. Its use for ripening a cervix to make it more favorable for a delivery is, indeed, rare. To list it as if OBs are using it left and right is just wrong. Talk about twisting facts! I am anti-abortion, but the following quote says is well: "About 60 percent of existing drugs are used off-label. We use drugs off-label all the time. The regulatory process takes a long time and often lags behind the science. We, as physicians, need not to be hamstrung. The purpose of the FDA is not to regulate physicians." -- Dr. Maureen Paul, medical director of the Planned Parenthood League of Massachusetts and president of the National Abortion Federation. Oh, and Cytotec is on page 377 of my PDR, not 2991 as the author lists. ;)
PROSTIN E2: First and foremost, it must be noted that the active ingredient, dinoprostone, is prostaglandin E2 -- a naturally occuring female hormone. When placed in the birth canal, it can ripen the cervix. That's what prostaglandins do.
This woman's list goes on and on, containing medications from Zofran and Phenergan (anti-emetics) to Lovenox (an anti-coagulant). The author uses scare tactics to make women think that doctors prescribe/use these medications willy-nilly. In actuality, obstetricians are very hesitant about prescribing medications to their patients unless it is absolutely necessary. All medications used during pregnancy and delivery are used on a risk vs. benefit scale.
The funny thing is that I didn't see the likes of Levaquin on that list at all, even though it's a class C drug. It's easier to villify medications used to induce labor or relieve pain than it is to villify a commonly used antibiotic, right?
Furthermore, if you are suffering from hyperemesis during pregnancy, the benefits of taking an anti-emetic far outweigh the risks (which are small). Same with Lovenox, as some women do have clotting disorders such as antiphospholipid antibody syndrome, Factor V Leiden, MTHFR polymorphisms, etc. just to name a few. Medication therapy in pregancy is not black and white. To a mother who is puking her guts out until she is severely dehydrated and malnurished or to the mother who has lost numerous babies due to a clotting disorder, their goal is to keep their unborn child safe ... and alive.
The best advice to a pregnant woman is to talk to her doctors and her pharmacist about any and all medications she might be taking during pregnancy -- both prescription and OTC. She will see that many of the claims/scare tactics used by the Nature Nazi movement are simply unfounded.
I have also researched the medications used in epidurals (as I had one in 2003 and will have another here shortly). I have also contacted the FDA for their official response to this nonsense. I got a reply back from CDER yesterday asking a question and telling me that my inquiry will be replied to soon. I will post their response when I get it so that clarification is made.
I also don't think you have the faintest idea what a doula is or what she does. She doesn't pretend to give medical advice or to tell you what choices to make. She's there as a labor support person to make your birth go as smoothly as possible and help out your family.
See, now that is the funny part of the comment. You must be a doula, LOL ...
I know the DONA definition of a doula and I certainly know what doulas *really* do. I have had the, um, pleasure, of meeting quite a few doulas and having contact online with many more. There are reasons why many doctors and nurses will not work with doulas and why many hospitals are banning their prescence. Perhaps you should read "Preventing a 'Doula Backlash'" by Penny Simpkin, PT, CD (DONA) or some of my rants about the way doulas are trained (or not trained, I should say), the fact that they are not goverened at all, that their "certifications" are not accredited at all, that many of their "clients" confuse a certification (which, again, is not accredited) with a state license to practice, or any of the plethora of stories from main-stream media about doulas overstepping their roles. I have moved some posts from my old blog to this one. Just look under the "doula hype" label.
Heck, I was kicked off of one board, AllDoulas after I pointed out the hypocrasy in their posts. One entire thread was about how many of the members would blatantly lie to (and have their clients lie) hospital staff in areas where doulas are banned from the maternity wards. They admit to pretending to be a family "friend." Real ethical there. ;)
The site also does not have a doula directory at all, but lists pregnancy photographers, midwives, doulas and other health professionals.
Actually, the directed at http://www.givingbirthnaturally.com/pregnancy-resources.html states that it has "Childbirth Educator, Midwife, Birth Photography & Doula Directory Listings" ... certainly NOT any health care professionals. ;) Click on it. There are mostly doulas and birthing centers (which generally have a doula referrel service at the very least).
Wake up and do some real research before you go spouting off such ignorant drivel. Or just close your eyes and pretend it's all a dream. Ignorance is bliss, right?
LOL ... talk about the pot calling the kettle black! LOL ... All you are doing is regurgitating the same B.S. that makes the Nature Nazi movement both the laughing stock of health care industry and dangerous to the community at large. If you all are going to tell women such crap, you should be legally responsible if they take your advice and something goes wrong.
I don't look down my nose at women who opt to deliver their children in an unmedicated fashion. However, I certainly do abhor women making other women feel like shit because they have a medicated delivery or because they feed their children formula and have them vaccinated or because their have their sons circumcised. Making a woman feel less than because her birth differed from yours is heinous. You should all be ashamed of yourselves for your lies, your scare tactics, and your snotty "my-birth/child-is-better-than-yours, you-are-weak-and-I-am-strong" mentality.
I am a proud mother to a very bright child that was born in less than 6 hours even WITH an epidural (a gift from God!), who is healthy as a horse, and up-to-date on her vaccines. I will deliver again shortly and this child will be delivered under the blessing of an epidural and some Zofran. My births are no better or worse than yours ... just way more comfortable. ;)
Information about epidurals from two difference sources: (click on thumbnail to read)
- From "What to Expect When You're Expecting", copyright 2002
- From textbook "Obstetrics: Normal & Problem Pregnancies" second edition, copyright 1991
7 comments:
So, this is where I stopped reading:
Heck, I was kicked off of one board, AllDoulas after I pointed out the hypocrasy in their posts. One entire thread was about how many of the members would blatantly lie to (and have their clients lie) hospital staff in areas where doulas are banned from the maternity wards. They admit to pretending to be a family "friend." Real ethical there. ;)
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But it's ethical to kick out a support person that a mother wants there? I'm sorry, it's not.
I also don't know where you got the idea that doulas are "natural nazis." I just took a DONA doula class, and the main reason [we were taught] to have a doula is that she supports the choice of the woman. I suppose you don't know that doulas go to planned induced labors, planned epidurals, planned cesareans--there are even doulas for women having abortions. A lot of doulas do advocate a natural birth because there are plenty of studies that say fewer interventions lead to better recovery times and bonding between mom and baby--but they leave that behind when working with a woman who doesn't make that choice.
I hope that help clears up your confusion about doulas. There are many books (_The Doula Book_ is a good one) and websites (if you go on another board, I would suggest asking questions genuinely instead of attacking--you'll get a better response.)
Well, yes it IS ethical to ask anyone impeding care to leave. During no other procedure can you have "who you want with you" in a hospital. Try telling the doctor that you want so-and-so there when you have your cholecystectomy or even your MRI.
It's a privilege, not a right, to have guests with you during a procedure in a hosptial.
I considered having a doula with the birth of my daughter in 2003. (Heck, the women's hospital at which I delivered has their own trained doula staff.) In 2005 I thought about becoming one. I was starting nursing school and thought that it would help in my path to becoming a LDPP nurse.
I've said this in posts and emails before: I am positive that there are good, ethical doulas out there. I've just never met one -- either in person ... and out of the plethora of doulas I've conversed with online, there have only been two good ones. The vast majority do have an agenda and admit to doling out advice to their clients.
Most clients do not realize that there is no standardized training for doulas, there is no oversight, they are not regulated nor goverened like all other health care workers, nor are their "certifications" given by an accredited agency.
I know what a doula is *supposed* to do. The problem is that most doulas don't seem to know. Their overstepping their boundaries are why many hospitals either ban them or have their own trained staff of them. (If they are trained and paid by the hospital, the hospital can control their actions.)
Regarding the suspension from the AllDoulas board, when I inquired about why I was banned, I got the following in an email:
Hello, GatorMommy,
Thank you for your interest in Alldoulas.com. Regretfully, we see that you are not a doula, and Alldoulas.com is intended and designed for doulas and aspiring doulas to learn from and support one another as colleagues within our job field. For this reason, your Alldoulas.com account has been suspended; we apologize for the inconvenience. Please contact me if you feel that this decision was made in error. The good news is that we do expect to have a page for parents and a page for medical professionals available for your viewing in the near future.
All the Best!,
Doula Lori
Alldoulas.com Administration
Do I villify the doula occupation? No. I just don't respect it very much thanks to the nazi actions of some.
Dear Gator Mommy,
My name is Kathrine. I'm signing this anonymous because I don't have a blogger account.
I just happened to get this posting from someone else and thought I would comment on your comments of cytotec and doulas.
I was given Cytotec with my first daughter. I was not given informed consent; in fact, when I asked the nurse what she was giving me, she lied and told me it was pitocin.
She broke that little white pill in half and inserted it into my vagina. Within ten minutes, my labor was hard enough that I couldn't breathe. She came back 20 minutes later to give me the second dose of "pitocin." I told her no. She said yes. I told her no, I don't want it. She said, "Yes, you do." I said, I don't want it, I don't need it, labor has started again and you don't need to give me that; I DON'T want it. She told me, Yes, you really do. You don't know what you're talking about. She lay across my left leg and pushed my right leg open by my ankle and forced that pill into me, against my will and against my struggle.
The cytotec nearly killed us both. My daughter suffered moderate to severe brain damage, and while my wounds have healed, my heart never has, nor my emotions from being essentially raped by a labor and delivery nurse. If she had been a man, she would be in jail.
Contrary to your stated words, Cytotec is COMMONLY used in L&D, and informed consent is RARELY given, if at all. What woman in their right mind would knowingly accept a drug that could kill her or her baby, a drug that has killed tens of thousands of women before - that's been documented since 1998?
Doctors and nurses know full well that cyotec has killed tens of thousands of women, tens of thousands of babies, and has caused more irreparable damage to those children and their mothers than can even be counted in statistical data - since adverse reactions to this drug don't even get reported as they should.
Call up any lawyer and they will all tell you, Cytotec IS standard of care, period. That's because it IS used in L&D on a regular basis. ACOG created a guideline for its use, oddly enough, just three months AFTER Searle and the FDA sent a letter to over 200,000 providers in the US 'REMINDING' them that they are not to use Cytotec for L&D and "reminding" them of all the reasons why, INCLUDING fetal and maternal death.
Again, fetal and maternal deaths from cytotec has been documented since 1998, two years before my daughter was nearly killed by that little white pill.
Cytotec is not off label use. It is, however, on label contra-indicated, including a black label warning that is impossible to miss. Doctors give it in arrogance, thinking they know more than the mother who refuses it, or the manufacturer who says absolutely NOT to use it.
If I had had a doula there with me, I might not have ever gotten the cytotec. She would have known that it is not pitocin because pitocin only comes in an IV drip. Her 'certificate' could have saved my baby.
If I had had a doula, my husband probably would not have been sent out of the room so I could be assaulted by a nurse who was following doctor's orders, but not mine.
I confess that I don't know enough about the Doula industry to argue for or against them. On the one hand, it seems silly to have a 'labor coach' when you've got friends and family around.
On the other hand, if your friends and family don't know about informed consent, cytotec, pitocin, fetal distress, when to be alarmed and when not to be -- and MOST DON'T -- then having someone there with you who does is not a bad thing.
Tell me, are the doctors sending the doulas out because they're impeding care? Or are the doctors sending doulas out so they can do as they please with no witnesses to contradict the lies they put in birth records when their little plans go wrong, as with what happened to my daughter?
Again, I've never had a doula, and I know next to nothing about their industry. All I know is that I have learned the hard way that having an advocate who can double as a witness to crimes committed against mothers in labor, and their babies, is not a bad thing.
My husband was sent out of the room under the guise of "ice" so the nurse could shove her fingers up inside me and dose me with cytotec against my will. My husband was also "impeding care" when he backed me up and told her not to give it to me. She said fine, she left, she came back, sent him out for ice, and assaulted me while he was gone. Is THAT ethical?
I'm sorry, Gator Mommy, but one can hardly equate the "lie" of doula -- who by the time the birth rolls around can at least claim legitimate relationship with the mother -- with the horrid truth of medical battery and careless, sloppy, lazy that passes for medical care these days.
Don't espouse things with which you have no experience. Cytotec IS on label contra-indicated for a reason: It KILLS. It should not be given, it should be banned, and any doctor or nurse caught giving it in L&D should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.
And if you say, "I've had Cytotec and it didn't bother me," then Praise God that you and your child are fine. You dodged a bullet; you were lucky, nothing more.
I can point you to a petition with dozens of thousands of names on it - all of them victims of cytotec. Either mothers who lost their children, husbands who lost their wives, babies who lost their mothers, and would-be grandparents who watched their daughters' uterus explode all due to cytotec.
Remember, penicillin doesn't kill everybody either, but a doctor who gives it to a patient who's allergic to it just got sued and lost.
People read your blog, Gator Mommy, and they will invariably take your advice. Make sure the words you speak or write are correct, as it may mean someone's life.
I'm only signing this anonymous because I don't have a blogger account. My name is Kathrine and I have seen first hand what cytotec does.
I am sorry for your situation, but I do not believe this story is 100% true. If it were, you would have a damn good legal case as no one can force care on you. NO ONE. If this is completely true, did you sue? If you didn't ...
And, pray tell, where did this happen?
No hospital can force ANY medical intervention upon you. Even in an emergency when the patient is out, the hospital HAS to do everything to obtain consent from the next of kin.
I work in health care, was almost a nurse (hoping to work LDPP) and now work in pharmaceuticals and am pursuing a PharmD (on hold right now as I am due to give birth any day now).
As for a doula, there is no guarantee that she would have known Cytotec from Anusol. Doulas generally have absolutely NO medical training, NO pharmaceutical training.
For the record, I have never said that all doctors and nurses are ethical, good, or even nice. I have met some health care workers who act like they have huge sticks up their butts, who think they're God. (One of the front office ladies at my OB's office fits this bill ... the only reason I stay is that I have a damn-good OB/GYN.)
Information is a great tool. I fully agree with patients empowering themselves and even asking for second (and third, or even fourth) opinions before undergoing ANY treatment that is the least bit invasive.
But at the end of the day, I would say that 98% of all health care providers are good, ethical people who want to help you. To have a group label all doctors as greedy bastards who don't give a damn about you is just wrong ... and dangerous.
Wow. Okay, first you say you were kicked off due to your posts (see my quote again where YOU said "I was kicked off of one board, AllDoulas after I pointed out the hypocrasy in their posts." They obviously kicked you off because you are not a doula and that's their stated intention for their board.
Second, how DARE you question a woman's birth story from her? Lots of women are given interventions they don't want and find out later that are unneeded, such as cesarean sections, and don't sue, for a variety of reasons (the prevailing view in the ob/gyn community it's always a good option to section them because they won't sue since "you've done everything you could for the good of the baby.")
Thirdly, you don't seem to know there's an international organization called DONA International which has put together training criteria. Yes, it does mean something, because many people with many years of childbirthing experience has put that together. They're not, let's say, one person with a blog.
Fourthly, why would a friend of the mother not be in a way, but a doula would? Especially since the doulas probably been to a few births before and know to get out of the way when certain procedures are being started. Also, yes, it _is_ a mother's right to have whoever she wants with her with her birth, and should, because the more comfortable a mother is the less stressed she is and the easier labor can progress.
Doulas are educated about the drugs mothers are given during birth--it was covered in my doula class, it's in several of the required reading texts.
So why the big grudge about doulas, since you're so ignorant of what they really are?
Jennifer,
I only have a moment but I wanted to let you know that, after having a good laugh and forewarding you diatribe to a friend who happens to he be a LDPP nurse, I am working on a reply which will probably be its own post due to the lenght and information to be contained.
For the record: DONA is not an accredited agency and doula "training" is not standardized at all. A reading list and a weekend conference is not substantial to become half-way knowledgeable in anything, let along health care.
Secondly, I questin the lady's birth story for several reasons. Do I believe she had an adverse event? Sure. Do I believe it happened as she stated? No. If it did, I certainly hope she sued as having a nurse lay over you and force medication into you is not only unethical, it's illegal. This woman would have had a law suit that would have made national headline and that nurse would have lost her license at the very least.
Furthermore, if sometihng like that happened to me, I would have not only sued, I would have gotten copies of my medical record and posted it on the net with the names of those persons responsible and the name of the hospital at which it happened. I would make sure that newspapers knew, that the community knew. That nurse wouldn't be able to get her dry cleaning taken care of without a scathing look from the cleaner. Then again, I have been accuse of "Momma Gator" syndrome (try screwing with a momma gator's eggs/babies) so perhaps that's just me.
Your reply is typical doula B.S. with no foundation. And, once I bid my husband good evening, load the dishwasher, and take my prenatal/DHA combo I will sit down and give this reply the rebuttal it deserves.
Have a lovely day.
Reading your blog was so outstanding because I have to advertise myself as being an "alternative doula" because I feel very much the same way you do. I love being a doula, and I think that I have helped all of my former clients with moral support, comfort and education to have CHOICES.
I had my son fairly young in life, and I remember how badly labor professionals made me feel. If I did anything against their suggestions I was a bad mother. I was unable to breast feed and I was harassed by a certain group that would call me on the phone and remind me what a bad mother I was because of not breast feeding.
I took the epidural and I had a normal birth, I did not breast feed yet my son at 10 years old has yet to even have an ear ache.
Also in family planning hopefully my next child I have run the gamut of medical professionals who each given me polar opposites on drugs that are safe to take while pregnant. It wasn't until I went and saw a genetic counselor who had access to a database exclusively about pregnancy and individual medications. While the first doctor I went to see told me to get off all my medications (without even knowing what most of them were and what for) to another who said that because my medications are for depression and were all class C drugs it would be FAR better for me to remain on them because the mental health of the mother has more impact than the drug does itself.
Anyway, I am considered sort of a "rogue" when it comes to being a doula but the job description is to give the laboring mother the most comfort and support possible. Guilting, especially new mothers, by making them feel inept in my experience leads to much higher rates of postpartum depression.
God bless you in speaking out against the Nature Nazi's out there!
Erin Oliver
Doula
Albuquerque, New Mexico
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